An Cathaoirleach: This meeting is convened to consider Revised Estimates for Vote 20 - Garda Síochána; Vote 21 - Prisons; Vote 22 - Courts Service; Vote 44 - Data Protection Commission; and a second Further Revised Estimate for Vote 24 - Justice. These Estimates were referred for consideration…

...Deputy Gary Gannon: There absolutely has been and it has been very welcome. The shops and other businesses find that very welcome. One issue coming from it is that a lot of the gardaí are young. That is just the nature of it, giving they have just come out of Templemore, but the resultant displacement is having a real impact on the communities surrounding the centre. I was in Frederick Court apartments beside the Gate Theatre the other day. People are being pushed from O'Connell Street. It is not that they are up to no good, but they are in various states of vulnerability. They may be taking drugs or engaging in antisocial behaviour. It seems that as long as someone is out of the city centre, it is okay. The communities around the centre are being impacted. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: I hope that does not happen. 

Deputy Gary Gannon: It is happening. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: My understanding is that the increase in the Garda resources in Dublin city centre has involved very large numbers of the people passing-out from Templemore in the past two tranches being allocated to Store Street and Pearse Street. In fairness, part of the issue Deputy Kelly and others may have a concern about is the question of why they are all going to Dublin, but there is a plan there. That should not reduce the numbers doing work elsewhere in the county of Dublin. 

Deputy Gary Gannon: The county of Dublin is one thing, but the surrounding inner city communities, north and south, have all spoken about an increase in the displacement of crime and the entities involved in it. We definitely have more Garda cars, but they are driving past. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: We can agree on this: we need to recruit as many gardaí as we can. 

Deputy Gary Gannon: Absolutely. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: The more we have, the more confidence it is going to give to the local communities. We are in an unusual position in this country in that every community, including his and mine, wants to see more gardaí. Whatever constituency or community we go to, people want to see more gardaí on the street. Some countries do not have that and the people want to see the police force out of the area. It is commendable that we have a situation where everyone wants to see gardaí. 

Deputy Gary Gannon: It is really commendable. That was not the case when I was growing up but it is the case now. The Garda has done an amazing job. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: It has. 

Deputy Gary Gannon: Particularly in terms of the small area policing initiative that happened about ten years ago. There is a problem now, though, in that, because we have asked for more gardaí, they have been sent to the city centre and the residential communities around it are really feeling the impact. Will the Minister take a look at this?

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: Okay. 

Deputy Gary Gannon: Relating to the health diversion programme that is about to be announced by the Minister's Department and the Department of Health, when a person is found in possession of drugs, he or she is going to be diverted to a health facility as opposed to being sent to court. That is brilliant. It will be at the discretion of the individual garda who encounters that person. What level of training has been involved? The health diversion programme is to be initiated imminently, is my understanding. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: It is an important issue. Regarding training, gardaí get good training down in Templemore. As with teachers, we cannot expect gardaí to solve every societal problem. As to how this scheme will operate, the proposal is that it will try to divert people with addiction issues away from the criminal justice system and towards the health system. The Deputy may disagree with me, but given the level of training required for that, there needs to be aligned co-operation between the Garda, the drug treatment programmes, counsellors and the HSE. I was recently in Limerick. There is a very good proposal, called the community access support team, or CAST, between the Garda in Limerick and the HSE. If a person is identified as being in trouble or having emotional issues, which leads to the Garda being called, the intervention is through the Garda and the HSE. There is no great desire among gardaí in this country to keep bringing people before the courts. They want to ensure people can have their needs addressed. 

Deputy Gary Gannon: I fully agree with the Minister on this. I am referring not only to the training that takes place in Templemore, but also to continuing professional development training. This will be a stark change in practice for many gardaí. It used to be the case that people found with drugs were taken to a police station but now they will be rediverted to a health facility. This requires training. The discretion in this is with the individual garda on the ground. I would like to see some degree of a training budget. I would like to understand how this will be enacted. I would also like some oversight because what I do not want to see, and I hope it does not happen but it is better to say it and be in front of it rather than regretting it afterwards, is overpolicing of some areas whereby certain areas get better access to discretion while predominantly more working-class communities do not. I want to see what oversight is built into this mechanism and I would like to see the data. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: I hope this will not happen and I think it is unlikely. This is my assessment in respect of it. I have no doubt this project will need to be tinkered with and changed as it progresses but I welcome the fact that Deputy Gannon agrees it is a worthwhile policy to start. 

Deputy Gary Gannon: Absolutely. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: All I can say is that I have seen the CAST project in Limerick and we need to roll it out throughout the country. I hope this will operate in the same way, and that we have people such as drug counsellors working in collaboration with the Garda. Gardaí will have to know where they are going to refer somebody. This will put in place a system for gardaí to refer somebody, and people will be aware they will have to engage in some health treatment. There still has to be the alternative. People can avoid the criminal justice system but they need to go down another route, which is the health diversion programme. 

Deputy Gary Gannon: We have spoken about the fact that at present gun crime is almost non-existent in the State. This is very welcome and it is to the great credit of the gardaí who put themselves in harm's way during the feud. This does not mean that violence has gone away. The violence we see in our communities at present, and the drug-related intimidation, is horrific. We are speaking about people being brought into this at all ages. Older people are being intimidated for the drug debt of a son or daughter and kids are being brought into it as mules. I welcome the fact we do not have guns any more but a consequence of this is that it has gone far more into the shadows and it is a lot more insidious. I do not necessarily have a question on this. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: I appreciate that. Five or six weeks ago I launched with the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, a programme to try to give confidence to people to be able to confront the harassment and intimidation they get from drug dealers. I have been contacted by people in my constituency who have said their child is being threatened, and they are asking what they do. It is very hard to give them advice. This process is putting in place a mechanism for people to contact the Garda. There will be support services there. It is always difficult but it will get more manageable for people if they know there is a support network around them.

Deputy Gary Gannon: It is the DRIVE programme and I think it will be very good. 

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: Yes, it is very good.