2. Deputy Gary Gannon asked the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration the position of his Department on the central recommendation of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Drugs Use that the offence of personal possession of drugs be repealed; his views on whether the Government’s stated commitment to a health-led approach is inconsistent with the continued criminalisation of people who use drugs; the specific legislative steps he intends to take in response to the committee’s final report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [49887/26]

Deputy Gary Gannon: I want to ask the Minister about the recommendations of the Joint Committee on Drugs Use, particularly as they refer to the decriminalisation of drug use. I had not intended to ask this question so quickly following the release of the report, but it is important to seek clarification on some statements the Minister made in the media. I am looking forward to addressing them because I see that they are also in the response that has been sent to me right now.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: I thank the Deputy for his question and, indeed, for his work chairing the drugs committee and the work on its report. I have had an opportunity to read the report. A very significant amount of work went into it. There are 161 recommendations in it. I agree with very many of them. There are parts in the report that are excellent, especially the section that refers to sports, well-being, combating addiction and trying to divert children through the use of sport. As we all know, sport is the most effective diversion project there is in trying to protect children.

I want the Deputy to know I agree with a huge amount of what is in the report. However, in fairness to him and to the media, the one issue everyone wants to address and ask me questions about concerns what he has described as the central recommendation, which is to decriminalise all drugs, full stop. I will give the Deputy my straight answer or my personal view, if he wants. Alternatively, I could say the Department will consider the matter. I have concerns about decriminalisation. The reason relates to what is set out in the report and it is also based on my own views. One of the findings in the committee’s report is that if there is decriminalisation of all drugs, it is likely there is going to be increased public use of drugs in public areas.

I want to consider situations that might arise in my area or the Deputy’s. If, for example, somebody was taking heroin outside a school or smoking joints in a park or another public area, there would be nothing the Garda could do. At present, if that is happening, a person can be moved on. Gardaí can, because there is criminal activity, apprehend a person and seize the drugs because the activity is contrary to what is set out in the criminal law. If there were decriminalisation, I fear that what happened in Oregon and British Columbia would happen here. We would see an increase in public disorder and the public use of drugs. I just want to be conscious of the impact it would have on society more broadly, particularly children.

Deputy Gary Gannon: Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire for his response. I was coming in here for a fight, but he has disarmed me somewhat with his response. What he has in his written reply is different from what he has said in that he said we went beyond the recommendations of the citizens’ assembly. I wanted to read the recommendation of the citizens’ assembly as presented on 24 October:

The Citizens' Assembly has recommended that the State pivots from the status quo to a comprehensive health-led response to drugs, including decriminalisation for people found in possession of drugs for personal use. The details of how decriminalisation can be legislated for is a question that the Oireachtas should determine following detailed legal scrutiny.

That is what the citizens' assembly states on its website.

We also considered the matter and were quite fearful. I represent the inner city. We examined the Oregon model in detail. What we found there was that Oregon failed on a number of fronts, but for one, it did not have the assets that we have. We use the word “therefore” in our recommendation when we acknowledge the potential for substance misuse or increases on the street. We state we should empower local authorities to have by-laws similar to those on the use of alcohol on the streets. We recognised that after our scrutiny and we would empower the Garda to go further than what Oregon or any other jurisdiction, including Lisbon, was able to include.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: This is an interesting discussion. I am very happy to have a policy discussion with the Deputy. We obviously have different views. My concern is what happened in British Columbia. The Minister of Health there is a social democrat, a member of the New Democratic Party. British Columbia introduced decriminalisation about three years ago and is reversing out of it now because, it says, it has led to much public disorder and much public taking of drugs.

I have great empathy for people who have addiction problems. Addiction is a huge challenge for anyone in life, but the Deputy and I also have to consider what the impact is going to be on other people, people who are not taking drugs, if you can openly take all drugs. It is not just cannabis the Deputy is talking about. We are talking about heroin and crack cocaine. If people can take those drugs openly without the Garda being able to say they cannot do that, it will have a very negative influence on people, especially children. If they see this happening, it is going to be normalised.

Deputy Gary Gannon: Does the Minister honestly believe I would stand over a policy decision that would enable an increase in open drug dealing? Does he actually believe that a committee that had representation from members of all parties, including his own and including incredible members such as Deputy Brabazon, whose views differ from mine on this, and Senator Mary Fitzpatrick, would do that? We examined the matter and what we established quite clearly was that the Oregon model failed because wraparound services were not present there. It was the same with the British Columbia model. What we also established was that we have one of the highest numbers of drug-related deaths in the EU. We have several provisions in the Statute Book – sections 15, 22 and 23 – that enable the Garda to go after those who are dealing the drugs. The section of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977 that criminalises possession for personal use actually prevents people from coming forward to seek treatment.

To ensure there would be no public consumption of drugs, we recommend clearly that council by-laws be passed to enable gardaí to move people on in that scenario. Also, we recommend that if they do not move on, public order measures would enable the Garda to arrest them. I assure the Minister that neither I nor anybody else on the committee would enable or support a situation where public consumption of drugs would even potentially increase.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan: I am not in the slightest challenging the Deputy's bona fides or genuine beliefs. I just have a concern that a policy advanced by people who are legitimately motivated by the best intentions may have a negative consequence.

There is one thing we agree on, namely, that there is and should be a health-led approach. Under the Government at present, there is a health-led approach to drugs. The health referral scheme, which will be in operation shortly, will provide an opportunity for someone who has, by statute, committed an offence to engage with health services and, as a consequence, avoid a criminal sanction. In this way, we are taking clear health-led steps to tackle the misuse of drugs.

I am concerned about the matter. I want to be frank with the Deputy and I do not want him to think I am sitting on the fence. I disagree with him. I fully respect the opinion he has come to. Just because I disagree with him does not mean that I am right and he is wrong.

I may Substance Misuse be wrong but my view, and it is a strong view, is that the decriminalisation of drugs is going to increase the public use of drugs and, as a consequence, also increase the use of drugs generally.