An Cathaoirleach: I welcome Deputy John Connolly, who was appointed to the committee by the Dáil this week. He is replacing Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl. You are very welcome, Deputy Connolly, and we look forward to working with you and having your input on this committee.

Apologies have been received this morning from Senator Nikki Bradley.

The agenda item for consideration this morning is child poverty and deprivation, resumed. As members will be aware, the meeting this morning is split into two sessions. In the first session we will engage with representatives from the Office of the Ombudsman for Children and in the second session with representatives from Tusla, the Child and Family Agency. The representatives from the office of the ombudsman joining us in the first session are Dr. Tricia Keilthy, head of policy, and Ms Nuala Ward, director of investigations. You are both very welcome to the meeting this morning. The purpose of the meeting is to continue our discussion on the challenges facing children living and at risk of living in poverty...

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú: Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. We are talking about 260,000 children living in households experiencing deprivation. I get the point about the fact that we need to see where the gap is and it is about making sure people have the absolute basics in relation to being able to live the life that everybody deserves. Whether we are talking about the issues in the public domain or anecdotal issues raised with us as constituency representatives, we have all seen a huge level of increase in complex cases. There is generational poverty and trauma, addiction, drugs, and mental health issues that also impact on that. As much as we have to deal with the fact that there are 260,000 children that are in the wrong bracket from the point of view of having all that they need, we also need a far more concentrated effort on those that are in real suffering and deprivation, whom the State is failing. The idea is to have proper early interventions of significant impact and then in some cases that children can be removed from scenarios that are not good for them or anyone else. I am not saying that is the first port of call. Obviously, if we can do the early interventions, we can improve lives and do whatever else. I would welcome the opinion of the witnesses on this. I assume they agree.

Ms Nuala Ward: It is really important that as a country we recognise the impact of social inequality and inequalities in terms of policy that impact on the ability of parents to do their job, and for them to do what they need to do and want to do.

Not that the Deputy is saying it, but we need to move away from the strong perception of parental blame. Sometimes, it is absolutely the fault of the parents. That is true. They need support to be able to parent properly. However, when you ask a mother whose toddler is not meeting developmental checks because there is nowhere to stretch them out on the floor of emergency homeless accommodation, or the same with direct provision, and they cannot cook for their own children, these are all issues that we need to address systemically because that is not the fault of the parents. We need to look at the children who are growing up in emergency accommodation and direct provision and on halting sites that are not fit for purpose. The range of issues involved are not the fault of the parents and have nothing to do with them, but they are impacting on their ability to parent their children the way they want.

Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú: I completely agree with Ms Ward. We constantly talk about it. Even those who are involved in interventions say they are not early enough in some cases, they are not significant enough and they are not for long enough. Therefore, by doing this we could save families from deprivation and poverty. We could deal with some of the issues that are out there and say what was needed. I have also seen scenarios of brutal cases.

I have seen alternatives where children have been taken away from what are brutal circumstances and their lives have been much improved. It is a matter of doing all of it. We do not have the resources, from foster carers right through, for what we need. My fear is that, sometimes, we are not having the real conversation. We might have a bit of it here but I do not think it happens in politics across the board. That is why I would love if someone would come in and say that, yes, there is the figure of 260,000 but we are also talking about a smaller cohort of people whom we are failing miserably and need to do a piece of work on. It is about providing that information.

Ms Nuala Ward: We totally agree. I understand Tusla will be before this committee after this session. They are wise questions and we are interested in some of the answers ourselves...

Mr. Cormac Quinlan: The Deputy asked how we pick up on poverty. When we are looking at any situation that is referred to us of a child protection or welfare nature, particularly when we are concerned about harm to a child, what we will commonly see - this was touched on in the Child Law Project report as well so it is probably relevant here - is a predominance of what we generally refer to as quite serious complicating factors in the family, for instance, drug and alcohol misuse on the part of a parent. That can often arise because a parent is struggling living in poor accommodation or poor housing. We will see domestic violence as a key issue as well on that. It is something that can be intergenerational and there can be an impact of poverty in that context as well. We will also see parental mental health issues appear there. They can suffer it because people have low income or are living in situations of stress or poverty.

We will see the dominance of those complicating factors in situations, and they are the factors that are more likely to cause harm to a child. So, when we are trying to assess safety for children, we are also looking at the positives and good things in a family situation, but one will see in all of our assessments strong reference to those issues. That is picked up in the child care law report. If you read those reports, you will see numerous cases where parents are presenting with those difficulties, which are clearly impacting on their ability to keep children safe. That plays into the piece around the whole interagency responsibility because the more other sectors pay attention to how their interventions, whether for adult mental health, domestic violence or drugs, are also focused on how we improve children's outcomes in that space, in that they are not just supporting the adults, but the family as a whole, the more that supports our collective work and how we address harm and future danger to children in that context. We are always assessing those factors in the context of any referral coming to us.

Obviously, if there is not harm, there may still be the presence of those factors and that is where we are trying to divert families into more family support services where they can get those supports. This is where we try to co-ordinate those services, such as the Meitheal model, on behalf of the family. We may appoint a lead practitioner who will try to work with those other service areas to try to address those longer term issues.

When it is child protection and welfare, we are doing the same thing. We are trying to get other professionals around the table to support how we might help the parent who has a drug or alcohol problem, but we are also paying attention to the fact that we need to keep the child safe today, tomorrow and the next day, even though there might be a drug or alcohol issue at play, and to who else can be involved with us to support from the wider network and other supports who can help keep the child safe today, tomorrow and the next day while we work with the parent to address an alcohol or drug issue.

Deputy Aidan Farrelly: On reflection, there is probably no organisation better placed to identify trends or to have that really thorough analysis of the daily lived experience of children and young people with such challenging life experiences. Meitheal was mentioned. As a practitioner, I experienced it in its very early days. Even then, one could see the phenomenal potential for this as a mechanism. It is great to see it having such an impact..

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