An Cathaoirleach: This morning, we will engage with An Garda Síochána to discuss its appropriation accounts for 2023. We welcome the following officials from An Garda Síochána: the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Drew Harris; executive director of finance, Mr. Aonghus O'Connor; chief corporate officer, Ms Siobhán Toale; deputy commissioner, Dr. Shawna Coxon; and deputy commissioner, Mr. Justin Kelly. We are also joined by a representative from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation: Mr. Daniel O'Callaghan, principal officer with the justice Vote. Finally, we are also joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms Mairead Leyden, audit manager. They are all very welcome... 

... Mr. Drew Harris: This issue goes back to the Commission on the Future of Policing requirement for a costed policing plan. This is something we are working towards in terms of the delivery of the systems, namely the financial and IT systems we need to deliver what is required. However, it would require a significant uplift in our ability to audit the time people spend on particular duties. We have specialisms, and while it is easy to say the work of the drugs unit is all related to drugs, a lot of our work is done by front-line gardaí and community police, who can cover a variety of areas. Winnowing out how much time they spend tackling drugs as opposed to antisocial behaviour or road traffic collisions, for example, is more difficult, but we certainly believe this is important. Where we spend our money is important and we want to be able to illustrate that in a stronger fashion...

... An Cathaoirleach: Okay. You might furnish the committee with a note on whether there is ongoing with the Garda or if that investigation has concluded. 

I have a couple of other issues I want to flag with regard to drugs. An issue that has become very prevalent in every town and village across the State is the issue of nitrous oxide, which to me is hugely concerning. There is evidence I have seen in my own community where kids as young as 12 years of age are taking nitrous oxide. I know there are issues there with regard to what gardaí can and cannot do. From my ongoing engagement with gardaí, who it has to be said do brilliant work in Wicklow, they have expressed concerns about the legal status of nitrous oxide and their inability to seize it. The providers of this very dangerous substance are openly and actively selling this online and are targeting, in my mind, certain demographics. It is predominantly aimed younger people, and I have concerns. I have a specific question. Different pieces of legislation have been brought forward by the Opposition. Have you concerns about nitrous oxide? Do you think specific legislation is required to enable the Garda to tackle this dangerous substance? There is obviously a catering necessity for it but it is being used incorrectly. 

Mr. Drew Harris: I might turn to Deputy Commissioner Kelly in a moment. Our concern about any of these is that they are a precursor. They are dangerous in themselves but they are also a precursor into harder drugs as well. This is, in effect, a gateway which opens young people up to the abuse of substances. That is why it is so dangerous. Second, children, as they are, are developing, and the introduction of any of these elements or chemicals can have a really detrimental and disproportionate impact on them, their development and, indeed, their mental health. It is of concern. I might turn to Deputy Commissioner Kelly in respect of the legislation. 

Mr. Justin Kelly: Thanks, Commissioner. Yes, we absolutely share your concerns around this, Chair. We actually have made significant seizures of nitrous oxide in large amounts. One of the concerning things for us was that, a couple of years ago, we targeted a transnational organised crime group involved in cocaine. 

Connected to that activity, we saw the group was also importing and supplying large amounts of nitrous oxide, particularly the large canisters. Organised crime groups will look anywhere they can to make money and are always trying to diversify. That is no doubt the situation with nitrous oxide. 

The Cathaoirleach correctly identified that we have a lacuna in legislation in respect of nitrous oxide. As he noted, the problem is there is an absolutely legitimate use for it, particularly in catering, which is being abused. My colleagues in the Garda National Drugs and Organised Crime Bureau sit on a number of interdepartmental groups, including one under the Department of Health, at which this issue has been raised. There are various proposals for what direction we should go on this. It is a very difficult situation for our people on the front line in particular. It is hugely concerning that young people are not aware of the damage this substance can do, as shown by lots of medical surveys. 

An Cathaoirleach: There is a need for specific legislation to enable the Garda to deal with it. 

Mr. Justin Kelly: Yes, but it is a challenging one because it is quite different from heroin and cocaine. It is a different situation and there will be challenges around the practicalities of it....

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